Coincidentally, I just made a new goal a few days ago to try to talk to at least one stranger whenever I'm out and about. This happened because I was in the grocery store and saw a guy with a t-shirt from an art exhibit I was considering going to, and asked him about it. He went on WAY too long, 5-10 minutes, lots of details and repetitions about all the displays and which way to go in the exhibit, and I was thinking about how that rain coming in would probably soak me if I ever got out to my car, but in the end, I was so happy I talked with this funny little guy, because I met a memorable, enthusiastic character, and I want to do more of that.
Love it. I also weirdly made a friend at the grocery store the same way––he was wearing a shirt from my college, so I was like "did you go there?" and he said "no" but then we got to talking and he also turned out to be...a social psychologist.
I've probably listened to more conversations than anyone alive, between recordings of jailhouse phone calls (to an outside party), recordings of police interviews, and a device I used to have that let me listen in on cell phones from passing motorists. Furthermore, I grew up in the era of landline phones where - no joke - it was nothing to have a six-hour chat with someone, sometimes even falling asleep while you're talking.
Obviously, I never interviewed anyone about their perception of whether the conversation went on for too long/short/etc. What I can tell you, however, is that most conversations seem incredibly boring to an outside observer but are critically important to participants.
First, the only conversations which seem engaging to outsiders are those in TV and films. As a screenwriter, I can tell you that these are VERY artificially constructed, and for good reason. Re-enacting a genuine conversation from a transcript would put the audience to sleep.
Second, one of the reasons why conversations seem boring to outsiders is because so much more is going on than an exchange of words aka "dialogue" aka what we think conversations are like due to film/TV. In some cases, it's literally passing the time with another person. You no longer feel alone. Other times, you're comparing and contrasting in order to find compatibility, hence the "oh where you from?" type of leading questions. In other words, it's kind of like an interview to see "can me and this person be friends/friendly?" Other times, it's almost like a mutual therapy session where you both get to release what's on your mind and the other person's job is just to listen.
Since you have recordings to review, go back and pick one at random. What you're gonna find is that there are short bursts where real/vital information is exchanged interspersed between long lulls. Someone might be talking about how "a cup is loud" and then boom, say something like "Hey, did I tell you I just got out of the hospital last week? Yep, cracked seven ribs."
Actually, it's quite a fascinating phenomenon, and now I'm kinda wishing I could eavesdrop on some conversations again because the rhythm and the give-and-take is VERY interesting once you learn how to interpret it. Hmm, maybe that's how I got into writing such good dialogue because the trick is to compress all the vital bits and trim out the (natural) lulls.
Totally agree with this take. I started a research project on this that I never finished, but with a similar hypothesis. We figured that people wouldn't understand how engrossing a conversation would be once they're in it, because from the outside they look so boring. But the magic of a conversation is that when you're in it, it is inevitably *about* you, even if you're talking about the other person.
Interesting topic. I do find it ironic that so many studies suggest that loneliness is increasing, particularly among the young. Yet, when given the opportunity to engage with another human being, most avoid it or view the interaction as anxiety producing or generally negative.
Communication with another person - particularly an open-ended conversation - is now something to be dreaded and avoided. So, loneliness increases as we continue to avoid the very interactions we desperately need.
Communication is a skill that, like any skill, must be practiced. Modern society has enabled us to largely communicate from bunkers - text messages, Tweets, e-mails, Slack channel posts, social media posts, comment sections etc. None of which encourage or teach you how to communicate more effectively.
Even the mundane voicemail now induces fear and panic in many people. They resort to scripts and multiple attempts to get a simple straightforward communication "right." Communicating small talk with a stranger is beyond a bridge too far. So, these results are not surprising at all to me.
Admittedly, I could be wrong, but what I have observed as a variable for a future study...is that older people - those raised in a prior time where direct personal communication had to be done to get along in life - invite conversations and engagement. This is the demographic that also tends to enjoy things like book clubs, and bingo games and bowling leagues. The kinds of people who when in need seek out support from real people to help them and not look to the internet, FAQs, chats or bots.
They enjoy the excitement of meeting new people and having new conversations and experiences. They enjoy human interactions and communications and what it adds to their lives. As a result, they are better at it. It is more natural for them, almost nostalgic.
On the other hand, it is generally the young who I see, with their noise cancelling headphones and work from home ethos who increasingly see technology as a substitute for social interactions and struggle with ordinary human engagement like those that you describe. They also report feeling increasingly isolated, depressed, and alone.
It strikes me that our technologies have provided us expanded opportunities for more and easier communication...but not better, richer, or healthier interactions.
No idea whether social anxiety has increased or just gets more attention now, but when you think about it, it's kinda funny to be more anxious about live communication vs. online. Everything you put into your phone or computer can be recorded and possibly viewed by anyone, and obviously for lots of platforms that's exactly the point. Which means it can be taken out of context, it can reach people who disagree with you, it can be taken out of context, etc. Whereas the thing you say to someone in the hall disappears forever and they're the only one who ever hears it, and they probably don't remember it for long.
Interesting that so many people thought that people would hate the conversations! Maybe it's just my inclinations as a Southerner but getting to chat with a stranger for 45 minutes sounds great to me, especially without any pressure to actually get along on a deeper level like a date setting.
This is really great! Just the right amount of info! Or maybe there could have been even more! It definitely wasn't too long!
This is a really funny line and point: "...a literal game of telephone about a telephone."
This is a really meaningful paragraph: "I know that scientists love to complain about science journalists: they take our beautiful, pristine science, and they dumb it down, slop it up, and serve it by the shovelful to the heaving masses of dullards and bozos! Nobody wants to admit that scientists cause this problem in the first place. Journal articles suck—they’re usually 50 pages of dry-ass prose (plus a 100-page supplement and accompanying data files) that must simultaneously function as a scientific report, an instruction manual for someone who wants to redo your procedure, a plea to the journal’s gatekeepers, a defense against critics, a press release, and a job application. So of course no one’s going to read them, of course someone’s going to try to turn them into something intelligible for the general public—who, by the way, really would like to know what’s going on in our labs, and deserves to know—and of course stuff’s gonna get messed up in that process. We let this system exist because, I guess, we assume scientists are so smart they could never speak to a normal person. But guess what, buddy: if you can only explain yourself to your colleagues, you ain’t that smart"
This is a really great takeaway: "So probably the best advice is: worry less."
Also I have a few questions:
1) Did any pairings of people explicitly discuss their desires for conversation length within the conversation?
2) Did you collect any data on where people might have been on the neurotypical-to-neurodivergent spectrum?
I'm pretty confident that if I were a participant, I would have the inclination to talk as long as possible UNLESS I found out that the other person wanted to end our chat sooner, which I would endeavor to find out from them directly. (Definitely that's what I would do NOW, having read about the study. But I think I would have done something like that even before I had.)
1) Sometimes! One common ending line was "So...I guess that's been more than a minute, huh?" Or "Is there anything else you want to talk about?" I haven't checked, but my guess is that even when people referenced the time, they weren't actually being upfront about their true desires.
2) We didn't. We did administer the "Buss-Cheek Shyness/Sociability Scale", which didn't seem to have much to do with anything.
You said there was no demographic difference, which I find remarkable regarding age.
I noticed that people under 30 are much more awkward talking to strangers. My kids (in their 20s) for example are always embarrassed when I make small talk with, say, a cashier.
Study 2 is more age-restricted, so most of the participants there were in their 20s and 30s. Study 1 runs the full gamut, but even there nothing popped out.
Obligatory share of Larry David saying there should be a “party sheriff” that observes everyone at a party and ends conversations when they are going too long (jump to 5:39): https://youtu.be/GtqV3HtZt94?si=7LF49vCdXBcOr1td
I live with chronic, post-convo rumination and guilt. Until now. I hope.
Seems to me that the/an underlying issue is that of the disconnect or the goodbye. Eg:
One (ex)friend of mine used to complain, greatly, about people who wouldn't let her get off the phone. I was in the room, once, during one of those phone conversations. I found that it was my friend who did not allow the conversation to end. It was fascinating - and lengthy - to witness. I dared not say anything, though, and wisely so.
I love to talk, but only because I love to learn and share what I am learning. Those who don't love to learn and share, I can feel their discomfort, and yet it doesn't stop me, because I'm not really certain of anything, so I keep going! Or rather, they don't stop me. If you must go, tell me so! If you don't like sharing or learning, say so! I'd rather not waste my time, energy, or breath!
In future conversations, I will keep this summary blog in mind, and consider a few conversational experiments of my own. Wouldn't bother me a bit to find a way to be silent in the presence of others. A very few, rare individuals are good at sending out the silent, be silent, vibe, and I actually catch that vibe and go silent as possible.
There are just so many fascinating facets to conversation! But the one that I've been focusing on most of late? Life IS communication. Maybe we should prioritize communicating in ways that are beneficial, healthy, and sustainable. I don't see/hear much of any of that.
Omg Adam, I was waiting at a crowded airport gate reading this and laughed way too often Out Loud!!! I realized if anyone Had asked me what was funny I would have had to answer like you did at the end and….🤪 anyway, another delightful read. Thanks! I would love to have a 9 minute differential chat with you someday! Ha! Greetings from a Psychology Librarian! 😎
I employ the following practice when talking to people. After every couple of minutes, I pause for several seconds (up to 5). This gives the other person a chance to talk. It also gives them a chance to end the conversation without interrupting me. I try to pause very casually, so it does not seem as if I am pausing for a purpose.
Super curious how this applies in sales. The stereotype of a salesperson is definitely someone who talks too much to give their mark an opportunity to escape. I'd be interested to hear how this technique works.
Silence makes a lot of people uncomfortable, so they will say something, anything, to break the silence. In a sales situation this will often reveal an intention or objection.
A curious method! Do you do that only when you would like to keep the conversation going? How do you end the conversation when you feel you don't want to continue?
I routinely briefly pause in conversations for the reasons given. But there are two other reasons that I pause. Sometimes I am discussing something with a lot of detail (for example, evolutionary origins of human behavior). If I sense that I am providing too much information, I pause and wait for my interlocutor to ask a question or ask me for more details. Then I know that the person wants to hear more. If they don't respond that way, I simply stop discussing that topic. As to how to end a conversation that I don't want to continue, that is a challenge. It depends on the milieu. If I'm at a gathering, I will say something like "it's been very nice talking with you," then move on to another person or area. If I'm talking one on one with someone, and there is no other person or activity available, and assuming we are engaged in small talk of some sort, I will say "Well, I've got to run. It was nice talking to you." I will sometimes extend my hand for a goodbye handshake. [It's a bit strange writing this all out. I've never explicitly thought about these behaviors]
Coincidentally, I just made a new goal a few days ago to try to talk to at least one stranger whenever I'm out and about. This happened because I was in the grocery store and saw a guy with a t-shirt from an art exhibit I was considering going to, and asked him about it. He went on WAY too long, 5-10 minutes, lots of details and repetitions about all the displays and which way to go in the exhibit, and I was thinking about how that rain coming in would probably soak me if I ever got out to my car, but in the end, I was so happy I talked with this funny little guy, because I met a memorable, enthusiastic character, and I want to do more of that.
Love it. I also weirdly made a friend at the grocery store the same way––he was wearing a shirt from my college, so I was like "did you go there?" and he said "no" but then we got to talking and he also turned out to be...a social psychologist.
Very interesting.
I've probably listened to more conversations than anyone alive, between recordings of jailhouse phone calls (to an outside party), recordings of police interviews, and a device I used to have that let me listen in on cell phones from passing motorists. Furthermore, I grew up in the era of landline phones where - no joke - it was nothing to have a six-hour chat with someone, sometimes even falling asleep while you're talking.
Obviously, I never interviewed anyone about their perception of whether the conversation went on for too long/short/etc. What I can tell you, however, is that most conversations seem incredibly boring to an outside observer but are critically important to participants.
First, the only conversations which seem engaging to outsiders are those in TV and films. As a screenwriter, I can tell you that these are VERY artificially constructed, and for good reason. Re-enacting a genuine conversation from a transcript would put the audience to sleep.
Second, one of the reasons why conversations seem boring to outsiders is because so much more is going on than an exchange of words aka "dialogue" aka what we think conversations are like due to film/TV. In some cases, it's literally passing the time with another person. You no longer feel alone. Other times, you're comparing and contrasting in order to find compatibility, hence the "oh where you from?" type of leading questions. In other words, it's kind of like an interview to see "can me and this person be friends/friendly?" Other times, it's almost like a mutual therapy session where you both get to release what's on your mind and the other person's job is just to listen.
Since you have recordings to review, go back and pick one at random. What you're gonna find is that there are short bursts where real/vital information is exchanged interspersed between long lulls. Someone might be talking about how "a cup is loud" and then boom, say something like "Hey, did I tell you I just got out of the hospital last week? Yep, cracked seven ribs."
Actually, it's quite a fascinating phenomenon, and now I'm kinda wishing I could eavesdrop on some conversations again because the rhythm and the give-and-take is VERY interesting once you learn how to interpret it. Hmm, maybe that's how I got into writing such good dialogue because the trick is to compress all the vital bits and trim out the (natural) lulls.
Totally agree with this take. I started a research project on this that I never finished, but with a similar hypothesis. We figured that people wouldn't understand how engrossing a conversation would be once they're in it, because from the outside they look so boring. But the magic of a conversation is that when you're in it, it is inevitably *about* you, even if you're talking about the other person.
Interesting topic. I do find it ironic that so many studies suggest that loneliness is increasing, particularly among the young. Yet, when given the opportunity to engage with another human being, most avoid it or view the interaction as anxiety producing or generally negative.
Communication with another person - particularly an open-ended conversation - is now something to be dreaded and avoided. So, loneliness increases as we continue to avoid the very interactions we desperately need.
Communication is a skill that, like any skill, must be practiced. Modern society has enabled us to largely communicate from bunkers - text messages, Tweets, e-mails, Slack channel posts, social media posts, comment sections etc. None of which encourage or teach you how to communicate more effectively.
Even the mundane voicemail now induces fear and panic in many people. They resort to scripts and multiple attempts to get a simple straightforward communication "right." Communicating small talk with a stranger is beyond a bridge too far. So, these results are not surprising at all to me.
Admittedly, I could be wrong, but what I have observed as a variable for a future study...is that older people - those raised in a prior time where direct personal communication had to be done to get along in life - invite conversations and engagement. This is the demographic that also tends to enjoy things like book clubs, and bingo games and bowling leagues. The kinds of people who when in need seek out support from real people to help them and not look to the internet, FAQs, chats or bots.
They enjoy the excitement of meeting new people and having new conversations and experiences. They enjoy human interactions and communications and what it adds to their lives. As a result, they are better at it. It is more natural for them, almost nostalgic.
On the other hand, it is generally the young who I see, with their noise cancelling headphones and work from home ethos who increasingly see technology as a substitute for social interactions and struggle with ordinary human engagement like those that you describe. They also report feeling increasingly isolated, depressed, and alone.
It strikes me that our technologies have provided us expanded opportunities for more and easier communication...but not better, richer, or healthier interactions.
No idea whether social anxiety has increased or just gets more attention now, but when you think about it, it's kinda funny to be more anxious about live communication vs. online. Everything you put into your phone or computer can be recorded and possibly viewed by anyone, and obviously for lots of platforms that's exactly the point. Which means it can be taken out of context, it can reach people who disagree with you, it can be taken out of context, etc. Whereas the thing you say to someone in the hall disappears forever and they're the only one who ever hears it, and they probably don't remember it for long.
Interesting that so many people thought that people would hate the conversations! Maybe it's just my inclinations as a Southerner but getting to chat with a stranger for 45 minutes sounds great to me, especially without any pressure to actually get along on a deeper level like a date setting.
I wonder how the results would change if alcoholic beverages were provided.
Dear Adam,
This is really great! Just the right amount of info! Or maybe there could have been even more! It definitely wasn't too long!
This is a really funny line and point: "...a literal game of telephone about a telephone."
This is a really meaningful paragraph: "I know that scientists love to complain about science journalists: they take our beautiful, pristine science, and they dumb it down, slop it up, and serve it by the shovelful to the heaving masses of dullards and bozos! Nobody wants to admit that scientists cause this problem in the first place. Journal articles suck—they’re usually 50 pages of dry-ass prose (plus a 100-page supplement and accompanying data files) that must simultaneously function as a scientific report, an instruction manual for someone who wants to redo your procedure, a plea to the journal’s gatekeepers, a defense against critics, a press release, and a job application. So of course no one’s going to read them, of course someone’s going to try to turn them into something intelligible for the general public—who, by the way, really would like to know what’s going on in our labs, and deserves to know—and of course stuff’s gonna get messed up in that process. We let this system exist because, I guess, we assume scientists are so smart they could never speak to a normal person. But guess what, buddy: if you can only explain yourself to your colleagues, you ain’t that smart"
This is a really great takeaway: "So probably the best advice is: worry less."
Also I have a few questions:
1) Did any pairings of people explicitly discuss their desires for conversation length within the conversation?
2) Did you collect any data on where people might have been on the neurotypical-to-neurodivergent spectrum?
I'm pretty confident that if I were a participant, I would have the inclination to talk as long as possible UNLESS I found out that the other person wanted to end our chat sooner, which I would endeavor to find out from them directly. (Definitely that's what I would do NOW, having read about the study. But I think I would have done something like that even before I had.)
Regardless, thanks for sharing!
Fascinating stuff as always!
Love
Myq
Good questions:
1) Sometimes! One common ending line was "So...I guess that's been more than a minute, huh?" Or "Is there anything else you want to talk about?" I haven't checked, but my guess is that even when people referenced the time, they weren't actually being upfront about their true desires.
2) We didn't. We did administer the "Buss-Cheek Shyness/Sociability Scale", which didn't seem to have much to do with anything.
Thank you!
Agreed on these follow up questions, but also add:
3) Is there any data on how attractive conversationalists perceived each other? This feels relevant to both conversation length and satisfaction
Alas, we did not.
This is the sort of thing I'd enjoy taking part in as I like talking to strangers but politeness usually precludes me from talking to them at length.
I wonder how this would look just with people who considered themselves good conversationalists.
“This cup is so loud!”
Oh man, how I laughed. I could clearly picture this scene.
You said there was no demographic difference, which I find remarkable regarding age.
I noticed that people under 30 are much more awkward talking to strangers. My kids (in their 20s) for example are always embarrassed when I make small talk with, say, a cashier.
Will send this article to them.
Study 2 is more age-restricted, so most of the participants there were in their 20s and 30s. Study 1 runs the full gamut, but even there nothing popped out.
Obligatory share of Larry David saying there should be a “party sheriff” that observes everyone at a party and ends conversations when they are going too long (jump to 5:39): https://youtu.be/GtqV3HtZt94?si=7LF49vCdXBcOr1td
I think this is an especially apt post considering the meet up this weekend. Informative and enjoyable post as always!
I just realized the rather unfortunate timing. Forget I said anything!
I love Adam's work because it's informative, readable and cogent. But mainly because he makes me laugh, every time.
I live with chronic, post-convo rumination and guilt. Until now. I hope.
Seems to me that the/an underlying issue is that of the disconnect or the goodbye. Eg:
One (ex)friend of mine used to complain, greatly, about people who wouldn't let her get off the phone. I was in the room, once, during one of those phone conversations. I found that it was my friend who did not allow the conversation to end. It was fascinating - and lengthy - to witness. I dared not say anything, though, and wisely so.
I love to talk, but only because I love to learn and share what I am learning. Those who don't love to learn and share, I can feel their discomfort, and yet it doesn't stop me, because I'm not really certain of anything, so I keep going! Or rather, they don't stop me. If you must go, tell me so! If you don't like sharing or learning, say so! I'd rather not waste my time, energy, or breath!
In future conversations, I will keep this summary blog in mind, and consider a few conversational experiments of my own. Wouldn't bother me a bit to find a way to be silent in the presence of others. A very few, rare individuals are good at sending out the silent, be silent, vibe, and I actually catch that vibe and go silent as possible.
There are just so many fascinating facets to conversation! But the one that I've been focusing on most of late? Life IS communication. Maybe we should prioritize communicating in ways that are beneficial, healthy, and sustainable. I don't see/hear much of any of that.
PS. Would love to meet you here in the city where I am, but ... I go silent when there's more than two people. 🙃
Omg Adam, I was waiting at a crowded airport gate reading this and laughed way too often Out Loud!!! I realized if anyone Had asked me what was funny I would have had to answer like you did at the end and….🤪 anyway, another delightful read. Thanks! I would love to have a 9 minute differential chat with you someday! Ha! Greetings from a Psychology Librarian! 😎
I employ the following practice when talking to people. After every couple of minutes, I pause for several seconds (up to 5). This gives the other person a chance to talk. It also gives them a chance to end the conversation without interrupting me. I try to pause very casually, so it does not seem as if I am pausing for a purpose.
That's also a strong technique in sales.
Super curious how this applies in sales. The stereotype of a salesperson is definitely someone who talks too much to give their mark an opportunity to escape. I'd be interested to hear how this technique works.
Silence makes a lot of people uncomfortable, so they will say something, anything, to break the silence. In a sales situation this will often reveal an intention or objection.
A curious method! Do you do that only when you would like to keep the conversation going? How do you end the conversation when you feel you don't want to continue?
I routinely briefly pause in conversations for the reasons given. But there are two other reasons that I pause. Sometimes I am discussing something with a lot of detail (for example, evolutionary origins of human behavior). If I sense that I am providing too much information, I pause and wait for my interlocutor to ask a question or ask me for more details. Then I know that the person wants to hear more. If they don't respond that way, I simply stop discussing that topic. As to how to end a conversation that I don't want to continue, that is a challenge. It depends on the milieu. If I'm at a gathering, I will say something like "it's been very nice talking with you," then move on to another person or area. If I'm talking one on one with someone, and there is no other person or activity available, and assuming we are engaged in small talk of some sort, I will say "Well, I've got to run. It was nice talking to you." I will sometimes extend my hand for a goodbye handshake. [It's a bit strange writing this all out. I've never explicitly thought about these behaviors]
Two topics of great interest to me are successful pickup lines at the Over-Fifties Singles Club, and sign-offs from an unwanted conversation.
Well, at least you had one humorous line in it! Fascinating study. Blue